What happens when you stop networking and start building something deeper—a community held together by shared purpose, vulnerability, and generosity? And how does the social space you operate in shape the creative work you're able to produce? Noah Askin is an associate professor of organizations at UC Irvine whose research spans status hierarchies, inequality in groups, and the social foundations of creativity. His new book with David Homan, Orchestrating Connection: How to Build Purposeful Community in a Tribal World, offers a framework for creating intentional communities that counteract the biases and inequalities that emerge in groups left to form on their own. On this episode of The Culture Kit, Noah joins host Sameer Srivastava to unpack the five principles behind building a community and why starting with yourself is the prerequisite to building meaningful connections. They also explore how genre shapes artistic creativity more than collaborators do and why a willingness to kindly confront bad behavior might be the most underrated community-building skill of all. *The Culture Kit with Jenny & Sameer is a production of Haas School of Business and is produced by University FM.*
What happens when you stop networking and start building something deeper—a community held together by shared purpose, vulnerability, and generosity? And how does the social space you operate in shape the creative work you're able to produce?
Noah Askin is an associate professor of organizations at UC Irvine whose research spans status hierarchies, inequality in groups, and the social foundations of creativity. His new book with David Homan, Orchestrating Connection: How to Build Purposeful Community in a Tribal World, offers a framework for creating intentional communities that counteract the biases and inequalities that emerge in groups left to form on their own.
On this episode of The Culture Kit, Noah joins host Sameer Srivastava to unpack the five principles behind building a community and why starting with yourself is the prerequisite to building meaningful connections. They also explore how genre shapes artistic creativity more than collaborators do and why a willingness to kindly confront bad behavior might be the most underrated community-building skill of all.
*The Culture Kit with Jenny & Sameer is a production of Haas School of Business and is produced by University FM.*
[00:00:00] Noah Askin: There is some social science research to show that generosity is contagious. People want to help, and it becomes an amplifier. And as social learners, when we see other people being generous, sure, there are going to be some people who take advantage of that. But oftentimes we go, "Yeah, actually, I can be generous, too."
[00:00:16] Sameer Srivastava: Hi, everyone. I'm Sameer Srivastava, a professor at UC Berkeley's Haas School of Business and co-founder of the Center for Workplace Culture and Innovation. And this is The Culture Kit, where we give you the tools to build a healthy and effective workplace culture. My co-host and dean of the business school, Jenny Chatman, is away today, so I'll be doing this one solo.
We talk a lot on this show about workplace culture with guests who typically are either academics or practitioners. So, today, I'm delighted to be joined by a guest who really bridges both of those worlds. Noah Askin is an associate professor of organizations at UC Irvine, and he is more than just an academic researcher, though he's an excellent academic researcher. He's also somebody who really thinks a lot about how the research he's doing relates to the real world and can be applied in organizations. That's in part because, like me, he has prior experience in industry.
In fact, Noah and I have led somewhat parallel lives. We even worked at the same firm for a period of time. We did Ph.D.s in the same field. We've crossed paths many times. But one of the ways in which Noah's been most helpful to me is in bringing down my Spotify age. It turns out my Spotify age is about 74, and Noah likes some of the same music I do, and he's introduced me to a bunch of bands that have started to bring that number down just a tad. So, welcome, Noah.
[00:01:42] Noah Askin: Nice to see you, Sameer. Thanks for having me. I don't know that I've ever been introduced as one of the key benefits that I provide as lowering someone's Spotify demographic, but I wear that as a badge of honor, so thank you.
[00:01:53] Sameer Srivastava: Of course. So, you and your co-author, David Homan, recently launched a book, Orchestrating Connection: How to Build Purposeful Community in a Tribal World, which we want to dig into in some more detail. I should also say that Noah is faculty director of the Leadership Development Institute and, as I mentioned, a former consultant at Monitor Group.
Before we get into the book, Noah, I want to ask you a question. What's a community that you're a part of and didn't build yourself, but that still really works, and what do you think makes it special?
[00:02:24] Noah Askin: Sure. The community that I've been really impressed by, of all things, is the Little League parent community in the town that I live in in Southern California. You know, I live in Orange County, which has a reputation for, maybe, sports parent zaniness, to put it mildly. And I was definitely wary of that venturing into it.
And I have to say, the community... I live in a relatively small town for Southern California, about 30,000 people here in Laguna Hills, and the Little League community is super welcoming. It is incredibly supportive of the kids, of the other teams, of the parents, of the development.
And, you know, I showed up to one of my friend's son's games who, you know, his son is older than mine, but, you know, we went to cheer them on, and there were just dozens of people who didn't have kids in the game who had showed up from a different town and really just come together in support of that, and it's been wonderful.
And I think it's the commitment to the kids and the town and, sort of, establishing ourselves as a little bit of a little engine that could because we are smaller than the surrounding towns. And so, it works really well, and I have found it to be much more special than I anticipated.
[00:03:35] Sameer Srivastava: Yeah, I can totally relate. So, our younger son played baseball, and we were part of various Little League communities, and then after he went off to college, we found ourselves showing up at our nephew's Little League games just to find that sense of community again. So, totally can relate. Well, you've spent many years studying how groups work and how status hierarchies form, how creativity spreads, how inequality gets baked into organizations.
And we'll talk more about that in a bit more detail. But in your book, Orchestrating Connection, you focus on the positive impact from intentional community building, and that seems to be related to some of your prior work on status hierarchies and inequalities. Can you tell us a bit more about how you found those benefits of intentional communities and what that really means?
[00:04:21] Noah Askin: Sure. So, I think maybe I'll start with what intentional community means. And this is a definition that I got from David, which is really about going in with an idea about, okay, why is it that we're convening these people and around a set of values or an idea or a particular interest or a purpose, rather than just, sort of, a loose collection of people.
You know, you settle into a neighborhood, and you form bonds, and that's wonderful, but it isn't always necessarily intentional. It's sort of happenstance. Same with, you know, your kids' friends' parents at school, kind of thing. And so, intentionality is really saying, "No, we're going to convene around this purpose, this value, this set of ideas."
And, you know, I think in some ways, the idea of intentional community is almost a counteraction to the hierarchies that form and the segregation or the different ways that inequalities pop up in groups and communities that aren't specifically designed or created with intentionality.
And so, I think one of the reasons I was drawn to it is because, you know, having attended a bunch of David's events or seeing what it looks like when you do invest with conviction and purpose, it's not that that eliminates, right, what we know about status characteristics, for example, and how that differentiates amongst groups and subgroups.
However, the idea of intentional community is how can we bring together a bunch of diverse people and get them motivated around a specific cause or idea, and do our best in the way that we structure the culture of that group to try to minimize the impact of a lot of the status-based inequalities that pop up when we're not more thoughtful about it?
[00:06:08] Sameer Srivastava: Makes sense. So, in the book, you lay out five principles that are key to the success of an orchestrated community. Can you tell us a little bit more about these five, and also where do these come from? Is this coming more from theory or from your experience or a combination of both?
[00:06:25] Noah Askin: Sure. So, the five principles, let's see if I can rattle these off, off the top of my head. Diversity, vulnerability, curiosity, generosity, and gratitude. And what's interesting is that these were David's principles. He started building his Orchestrating Connections community, probably about a decade ago, and these were his values that he put in place.
And one of the reasons why David and I connected initially and started talking about writing a book about this was he doesn't have a social science background, and yet, from having spent, you know, 15-plus years now researching networks and, as a result of teaching networks, being asked to teach more about networking.
And so, starting to dig into that prior to meeting David, I started to, you know, know both the sociological literature a little bit better and the psychology literature a little bit better. And the principles that I just rattled off that David has been, you know, you had that were foundational for David really speak to the research supports why these things are valuable in groups and how best to construct groups or relationships with these as some of the core principles.
And so, across each of these, there's plenty of evidence, and it's scattered throughout the book, certainly not exhaustive, but the second part of the book is really built around, here are the principles, and then here are both some anecdotes and vignettes that highlight them, but also here's some of the research that supports why these are helpful principles for building a community.
[00:07:57] Sameer Srivastava: Yeah. I mean, some of the research also points to some of the challenges of enacting these principles, like the Matthew effect, which you've studied, can concentrate credit and voice amongst a small number of people, which could run counter to the principle of generosity. So, how has your own research on social groups and status informed how you think about these principles?
[00:08:18] Noah Askin: Yeah. So, the first piece that I, kind of, took from David is the way that he does introductions and during his events, and it's with a vulnerability-inducing prompt, and it's not about introduce yourself. It's not anything, sort of, demographic-oriented. It's really a question designed to get at a little bit more of who you are as a human being.
And what was interesting is that brought me back to the Aron research from the late '90s, Arthur Aron, about mutual increasing disclosure, i.e., vulnerability, as leading towards greater liking and greater connection. You know, I think that generosity absolutely can benefit people, but it also can be taken advantage of. And when you're connecting with people in a deeper way, in a more meaningful way, a more humanizing way, I think that that reduces the likelihood of people taking advantage.
I think it also creates the kinds of relationships and the social monitoring amongst a group, not just individually, where when someone does take too much credit, or somebody does take advantage of, you know, generalized reciprocity in a group, that the relationships are strong enough and the commitment to the culture has been sufficiently reinforced that it's easier to deal with that as a situation that needs to be dealt with, as opposed to just hoping it doesn't happen again, right? The relationships are there, the expectations are there, the norms and behaviors around it are there to hopefully counterbalance that as much as possible.
[00:09:49] Sameer Srivastava: Super helpful. And everything you said makes a lot of sense, and yet I could imagine a listener also saying, "Boy, that sounds great, but it's a little abstract. Can you help me, like, understand how this works in practice?" And your book actually has a bunch of real examples. So, maybe take us through one that really helps to illustrate how these principles work.
[00:10:08] Noah Askin: Sure. So, when David and I first were talking about writing this book, there's a lot of examples in social science that are, sort of, constantly used over and over again to demonstrate principles and demonstrate the research findings. And so, we wanted to go with, for the most part, real stories of people that we knew directly or interviewed directly. And we do have a vignette about Stevie Wonder in there, but I, you know, had to have some music and Stevie Wonder in particular. But I think what I like about the vignettes is they are separated from the community itself, but they are the demonstration of that principle and why this individual or the people in this particular vignette are part of the community.
And so, you know, one of the vignettes in the story is a guy named Ramphis Castro, who was one of the first people I interviewed after meeting David and wanting to start to talk to people in his community. And he grew up in extreme poverty in Puerto Rico, super bright guy, and realized that he did not have the network connections or the community around him to get the, kind of, access that his brainpower would, in a different circumstance, naturally lend itself to the kinds of opportunities that our students and the people listening to this tend to just assume if you're really bright and motivated.
And he, kind of, recognized that and figured out ways to put himself in situations where he was developing that kind of community and also getting the social proof of the degrees that he needed. He was fortunate enough to get an internship or a job with Microsoft, and realized that he could now create those communities for others.
And so, there's the generosity of, like, you know, it's a hackneyed term, but this pay-it-forward idea, of, right, I, sort of, put myself in this situation, and it led to lots of great opportunities, but now I'm going to create opportunities for others. And so, that generosity, and that particular vignette stood out to me because that was one of the first people I spoke to, and it, sort of, resonated... Like, okay, people are actually living these things, right?
Because I think, you know, as social scientists, especially if you're studying status and the ways that it can harm groups and how it benefits some and not others, you can be pretty cynical about, you know, what happens with individuals when given opportunities. And so, to talk to somebody who, you know, is involved in venture capital in Puerto Rico and recognizes that, he does a ton for his home country and his hometown, you know, and wants minimal credit for it.
And everybody that I interviewed, whether they were in David's community or just others that were snowball-sampled, everybody was like, "How can I help you? What can I do for you? Let me know." And it was just such a refreshing change of pace, I think. And I think people are more like that than we sometimes believe, but it was so nice to experience that firsthand.
And, you know, you see there is some social science research to show that generosity is contagious. People want to help, and it becomes an amplifier. And as social learners, when we see other people being generous, sure, there are going to be some people who take advantage of that. But oftentimes we go, "Yeah, actually, I can be generous, too." And so, watching that play out through Ramphis' and others' stories, I think was really pretty powerful.
[00:13:12] Sameer Srivastava: So, one of the other things that comes up as a theme in your book is the interplay between the individual and the group or the community, right? And so, although you are talking a lot about the community level, a lot of your recommendations really begin with the individual. So, could you say a little bit more about how you see the individual relating to the group and where the agency lies?
[00:13:35] Noah Askin: Yeah, I think people often think about networking as starting with the network, like, who are the people I want to be in touch with and how do I get in touch with them? And they, kind of, skip the first step of, all right, who am I and what do I bring to the table, and what do I care about, and what is it specifically I need to ask for?
And I think coming armed with that is so much more effective in helping to either, A, build the community around the thing that interests you or whatever it is you're looking for, or to find the right community to be a part of, because you've done the work to think through what motivates me, what gets me out of bed in the morning, what do I care about, what do I feel like is my purpose? Which I know there's, like, a lot of talk and a lot of hand-wringing about people discovering their purpose these days, and I think, sort of, lowering the pressure on needing to have, like, a singular purpose that lasts you throughout your life is one of the things we actually talk about in the book. It's like, for now, what are you most excited about? And what gets you out of bed and is outside of yourself, right? Gets you outside of yourself.
I teach MBAs and undergraduates and executives, and the executives oftentimes will have a clearer sense of what it is they're looking for, although not always. But MBA students, they just, sort of, like, "All right, I know that I need to network, and I'm going to get out there, and I'm going to just talk to people and figure out then through those conversations what it is that I'm looking for." And I think that's a missed opportunity because you end up spinning your wheels for a while. Whereas if you come in with a clearer sense of what you care about, what you're looking for, what you bring to the table, that's your bat signal. That's your way to, sort of, signal to the world, like, what interests me, what do I care about, and how do I draw others in to this conversation with me?
And so, yes, community is the ultimate goal, but it's a community of people who are brought together around that singular or small set of ideas. And to be able to find the right one, you have to be pretty clear on what it is you're doing. And if people are going to be helping each other, you want to know what you bring to the table. And if you're going to ask others for help, you want to be quite clear on what you're asking for. You know, how else can people help you unless you're quite specific and clear? And so, I think that's why it starts with the individual, but ultimately with the goal of the communal.
[00:15:49] Sameer Srivastava: Yeah. So, I want to connect your work on community, which we've been talking about, to another line of research that you are well-known for, which is around creativity. And this may be the chance to bring Spotify back into the discussion because a lot of your work has focused on creativity in the context of musical production.
So, could you maybe first just tell us a little bit more about that research? I know you gave a talk at Berkeley that was just the last time I saw you in person, on the social foundations of creative influence. Just maybe summarize that line of work, and then can you connect it back to this community idea? How are they related to each other?
[00:16:25] Noah Askin: Sure. The paper that you refer to that I presented is really about looking into what's going on in the creative process that enables a focal artist or a focal band to be more creative. Is it a function of the collaboration network? Like, who are the people that I'm playing with? Or is it more related to the social world in which they're producing, meaning in this case, genres, right?
There's a whole line of network research that would suggest it's all about the collaborators and the diversity of material that those collaborators have access to. And then sociologically, we know that from the categories world, that the category, or in this case, genre, you're associated with is going to also play a role in these things.
And, you know, just to sum up pretty simply, we find that the genre influence is about actually five times stronger on creative output than the collaborator influence. Which is not that the collaborator influence doesn't matter, it does, but the genre influence is stronger. And what's interesting is, you know, we look at recombination as the, kind of, foundation of creative influence, right? Where you're pulling different ideas and different material from, and simply just pulling from a bunch of random other genres is not that helpful for creativity if you're not in a particularly creative genre to begin with.
And so, it's really about the social space that you as an artist are operating in that enables or constrains your ability to be creative. Which, when you say it like that, is not that surprising, and yet it's, kind of, this intersection of two different streams of research that have been ongoing and with, kind of, different predictions over the last decades. And so, thinking about who you surround yourself with matters, but also what are the social spaces that you're putting yourself in?
And so, if you think about community, it's a combination of things, right? It's who are the people I'm going to be in conversation with, because that's going to matter, and who do they have access to, and what introductions can they make, or what skills and opportunities do they bring to the table? But also, what is the idea or what is the value that we're gathering around? Because that's going to open and close different doors.
And so, it's really thinking about the intersection of these. Who are the people here, but also why are we gathering? What's our why? And that's going to create the opportunity space for how helpful we can be, how many options we may have to go on. And so, it really sits at the intersection of the two.
[00:19:00] Sameer Srivastava: So, Noah, can you give us a sense of how this plays out in the context of, like, some specific bands that people may have heard of?
[00:19:07] Noah Askin: Sure. So, I do have one paper with Spencer Harrison at INSEAD and Lydia Hagtvedt, who was at Boston College at the time, I believe. And we look at what happens to the creative process in bands that are recognized for being creative. So, we looked at, it's a qualitative and mixed-methods qual and quant study of the bands that were nominated for the Best New Artist Grammy in the '80s. And right, so now they've had long enough time horizons to see what happened to them afterwards.
And basically, there's like a couple of paths that groups that are recognized for creativity can go, and most of them lead to less creativity in the long run. So, we identify...
[00:19:45] Sameer Srivastava: So, which bands were you focusing on?
[00:19:47] Noah Askin: So, we looked at The Go-Go's, and they have a bit of what we called an elevated recognition orientation, which means now all of a sudden there are too many people coming in, too many cooks in the kitchen, dealing with fame in poor ways. They let too porous boundaries around the group and the creative process. And then we look at Sade. Sade, the band has what we identified as an insulated recognition orientation, where they use the recognition basically as an opportunity to say, "Great, now we've demonstrated we can do this. We're going to put up boundaries. We're going to do things the way we want to do them. We're not going to be pressured. We're going to take our time. We're going to follow our creative process when the muse strikes." And that leads toward greater creativity down the line.
And then there's, kind of, this mixed one where the band A-ha, we use famously for "Take On Me," they, sort of, first follow an elevated recognition where they get, kind of, excited about fame, and everybody, kind of, wants a piece of them, and then at some point they realize, like they reach a breaking point or they break up even and then get back together, and they, kind of, bring themselves back down to be more focused on the music and their creative process and become a little bit more insulated.
So, that's just one example, kind of, fun if we have anybody in, sort of, our age range who's into their '80s music, a little bit about the creative process over a career.
[00:21:03] Sameer Srivastava: Terrific. We always like to end our podcast with some takeaways for our guests. So, if you could summarize what we've talked about into two or three key takeaways, what would those be?
[00:21:13] Noah Askin: Sure. I mean, I think number one is, you know, it's the age-old wisdom, know thyself. Start with yourself. Understand what motivates you, what gets you out of bed in the morning, what excites you most, and then how to ask others about that, right? What are you most excited about right now? What's the thing that's keeping you up at night? As opposed to just your, sort of, simple, standard, "What do you do? Where are you from?" Like, get people going on the things they're excited about. So, Nick Epley is a social psychologist at the University of Chicago, and he talks about engaging people and asking them their whys.
Getting beyond the what questions and getting to the whys as really starting to form the foundation of connection. And, you know, I think being able to walk into a conversation and answer for yourself is really important. So, start with yourself, one. Number two, little acts of generosity, put in the right direction with the right people, go a long way.
Like I said earlier, we are social learners, and so watching other people be generous oftentimes will trigger that recognition of opportunity in ourselves. You know, even going back to Adam Grant, Give and Take, he talks about the five-minute favor. Can you do something quick for somebody that to you doesn't feel like a big investment, but actually may help them have an outsized benefit to them? And so, little acts of generosity go a long way.
And then I think related to that and relating to the question that you asked about how it can be difficult to keep these values and principles going, I think don't be afraid to kindly but directly deal with takers or other people who take advantage of what you've created in a community.
In fact, the question that I've gotten most from friends or, sort of, acquaintances who've read the book is, "I've had this issue with a kind of a friend or an acquaintance or somebody, and you're suggesting I just go to them and tell them that, like, I'm not okay with this, and here's why?" And I said, "Yeah, that's the idea." And I've had people come back to me and say people were much more receptive. They were happy, I told them. It actually helped the relationship.
And so, I think we're very reluctant in social contexts to, like, try to stop bad behavior. Obviously, there are lines at which the bad behavior becomes reason to not be friends with that person, but I think there's a lot in between, you know, good behavior and that.
And I think we oftentimes will let things slide. And I have to say, this is one of the things I've been most, kind of, amazed at in watching David, and since we've become friends over the last six years, is, he has no problem being like, "Hey, listen. I bring a lot to the table. I'm going to be as generous with you as humanly possible, but I expect these certain ways of not just engaging with me but with the people that I associate with." And he holds people to that.
Oftentimes people are a little surprised at first, but I think it's interesting to see when people... Especially if it's dealt with kindly and directly, it can be quite powerful. So, that was a long three, but there are three in there.
[00:23:56] Sameer Srivastava: Terrific. Thanks so much, Noah. This was super insightful, and great to reconnect with you, and keep sending those music recommendations my way.
[00:24:03] Noah Askin: Thanks, Sameer. Will do.
[00:24:06] Jennifer Chatman: Thanks for listening to The Culture Kit with Jenny & Sameer! A podcast dedicated to helping you build a strong and effective workplace culture.
[00:24:16] Sameer Srivastava: The Culture Kit is a production of the Berkeley Center for Workplace Culture and Innovation at the Haas School of Business and is produced by University FM. If you enjoyed the show, be sure to subscribe, leave us a review, and share this episode online so others who have workplace culture questions can find us, too!
[00:24:33] Jennifer Chatman: I'm Jenny.
[00:24:35] Sameer Srivastava: And I'm Sameer.
[00:24:36] Jennifer Chatman: We'll be back soon with more tools for your culture kit.